Jeff - I couldn't agree more with your take. Funny, it's usually a combination of factors that leads ones to doubt the borg. For example, I had seen many "apostate" sites and it never really phased me. But, the actions I saw by elders & COs coupled with the UN thing really got me to take a serious look at doctrine. And when you look objectively at the JW faith, it just can't withstand the facts and falls like a house of cards.
Doubting Bro
JoinedPosts by Doubting Bro
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55
Why Jehovah's Witnesses Are Discouraged From Using the Internet
by AllTimeJeff inat a recent series of circuit assemblies, the governing body put out warnings on what in their view is the latest danger from satan, designed to break the faith of jehovah's witnesses everywhere.. facebook.. yes, thats right, apparantly, the gb is concerned because a lot of people are having "facebook sex".
they are meeting old friends who aren't jehovah's witnesses and getting it on with whomever would willingly sleep with them.
evidentally, the gb would like their flock to believe that when jw's get on facebook and other social networking sites, fornication happens.. now, this is news.
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Cult expert S.Hassan speaks out on witnesses in Russia.
by koolaid-man inhttp://www.goddiscussion.com/18765/russia-to-drafts-law-to-ban-religious-cults-mormons-moonies-jehovah-witnesses-and-others-fear-persecution/.
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Doubting Bro
Here's the definition of a not-profit organization from the IRS:
The exempt purposes set forth in section 501(c)(3) are charitable, religious, educational, scientific, literary, testing for public safety, fostering national or international amateur sports competition, and preventing cruelty to children or animals. The term charitable is used in its generally accepted legal sense and includes relief of the poor, the distressed, or the underprivileged; advancement of religion; advancement of education or science; erecting or maintaining public buildings, monuments, or works; lessening the burdens of government; lessening neighborhood tensions; eliminating prejudice and discrimination; defending human and civil rights secured by law; and combating community deterioration and juvenile delinquency.
The purpose of granting this status is because these organizations are supposed to be working for the good of the community with NO profit motive. I simply disgree with the IRS in their definition of charitable when it includes organizations that advance religion. I think its a direct violation of the 1st amendment because the State has no business advancing any religion. Freedom of religion is an important right but I fail to see how allowing religious organizations amass large amounts of wealth (cash, property, whatever) without paying for the burden they place on the government can be deemed charitable. If they're actually engaged in real charitable activity such as running a homeless shelter, soup kitchen, etc. then fine. Make those funds deductible and tax whatever profit they make.
I realize religious organizations are very powerful and that's the real reason why they are considered charitable. It doesn't make it constitutional or right.
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Cult expert S.Hassan speaks out on witnesses in Russia.
by koolaid-man inhttp://www.goddiscussion.com/18765/russia-to-drafts-law-to-ban-religious-cults-mormons-moonies-jehovah-witnesses-and-others-fear-persecution/.
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Doubting Bro
Although I disagree with banning any religion per se, I do think they are given special unfair treatment and would like to see 2 things happen:
1 - Any tax exemptions should be revoked. I don't see how paying property taxes and income taxes on profits restricts or prohibits the free exercise of religion any more than saying my paying property taxes or income taxes restricts my freedom of speech. In my opinion, the freedom FROM religion is just as protected under the first amendment as freedom OF religion. By religion not paying its fair share for various services provided by the government, they force those not affiliated to pick up the tab. Tax exemptions give religion preferential treatment. Their profits should be taxed at the corporate tax rate on profits because that's what they are. I would say they should be able to deduct monies used for charitable services but the problem is the tax code says religious instruction is charitable services. That's why the WTS can avoid taxes although they use very little funds toward true charity work. The inherent bias in the US legal system is towards religion. Not necessarily to promote any one religion or a state religion, but they do go out of their way to give religion protection that no other type of corporate is afforded. Putting a tax on a particular religion or establishing a religious tax is unconstitutional. Making them pay property taxes and income taxes that everyone else pays? I can't see how that would be unconstitutional.
2 - The WTS, Amish, Scientologist, etc hide behind the 1st amendement when they treat former members poorly and slander them. The WTS & Christian Scientists hide behind the 1st amendment when they coerce people into dangerous behavior regarding medical care. I think individuals shoudl be allowed to sue for damages in these cases and religions be held responsible when their teachings cause harm. Sure, they can teach what they want, but they shouldn't be given protection from their own teachings.
People should have the freedom to believe what they want. But religious organizations should be held responsible for their bad behavior.
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Did you start out as a "Reformer"?
by lepermessiah inhow many of you started out down this road as someone who knew there were lots of problems and holes in the doctrine of the religion but wanted to be "part of the solution" as what i would call a "reformer"?.
for a long time, i wanted to be an outstanding elder since i thought so many of them were @$$holes, but i found out after a while the majority of the good ones are chewed up and spitten out in the organization.the others who start out with the right motives either fall in line or get run over.. unfortunately, i kept that delusion up for many years - and just about killed myself doing it.
thats when the light went on and i finally figured out why i was so miserable doing it - it was all for naught - you cant change it.
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Doubting Bro
I remember when I was first appointed an elder. I actually believed that I could make a difference and change things (at least locally). I thought COs would listen to my ideas (hahahaha - I was naive and in my late 20s so I thought anything was possible). At first, I picked my battles but after a while I realized that I may be able to be a "force for good" in some rare instances locally, that wasn't the real problem. The real problem is the organization. It really has a life of its own and while I think it will continue to morph it will never truly reform. To reform would mean letting go of the reigns and losing control. Yet, control is the lifeblood of the organization. Without it, the org really doesn't have a purpose.
Interestingly, my dad & I had a conversation recently in which he tried the whole "if you're not part of the solution, then you're part of the problem" line of reasoning. It bothers him that I "stepped aside". I haven't been completely honest for my reasons other than "burnout". I know he sees through that because he knows that I can handle a pretty large amount of stress and be fine. I believe he realizes that I don't fully believe because when you get right down to it, I don't think he fully believes either.
I think it speaks volumes when every elder that I'm close to has a list of complaints yet still believes it's "God's Organization". If that's the case, I argue, then God will fix the problems without my involvement. If not, then why bother.
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Does the leadership/GB of WBTS really believe what they teach, or is it all about business?
by african GB Member insurely it does'nt take a rocket scientist to see that this is just another church,.
one wonders if they deliberately ignore the facts and continue to control and dictate their way of thinking onto the rf jw's while they know this is not as true a religion as they make it to be..
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Doubting Bro
I also agree with Ynot. If they were all about the business, they would mainstream to some extent like the LDS. Of course, many (myself included) still consider the LDS a cult but they are more a part of the mainstream than JWs. And, I get the sense they are wealthier as an organization and as individuals.
I think from the GB right on down, they may not believe every doctrine, but they do believe they are being used by God. If you think God is using the organization, it doesn't matter what the doctrines are because if they're wrong, its because God wants them to be wrong for some reason. It's only when you really question if God is behind the organization that all the bricks fall.
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Watchtower cleans out Kingdom Hall Library's ...
by RR inlast night i got a call from a chap in the uk, who recently left the jw's.
he wanted to compare notes with his us counterparts.. he said that a few years ago, (i think about 2 years ago) the society cleaned out all the literature from every kingdom hall, particularly russell and rutherford books and anything prior to 1950. giving each hall a computer with the watchtower cd rom for them to use for research.
he wanted to know if the same was done in the states.
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Doubting Bro
I agree with TOH on this one. It must have been localized because in several congregations spanning multiple states in the US, I have seen KH library's with at the very least some of the Rutherford era stuff and usually the Russell era pubs like old WTs & Study in the Scriptures.
I know some KH's have limited library space (they one I currently attend fits into that category) and in that case usually the newer stuff is displayed.
If they were smart, they would purge all the old stuff because I've read some of it and it makes the new stuff look sane.
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New generation definition....has the Society "jumped the shark"?
by sir82 infor those who need a refresher, here is the latest redefinition of "generation" from the 4/15/2010 wt:.
understand jesus words about this generation?.
he evidently meant that the lives of the anointed.
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Doubting Bro
I thought they jumped the shark in 95 with the generation change from "those born 1914 or earlier" to "those who see the end". They've been floundering around ever since. This is the 3rd time they've changed the meaning of something that is easily straightforward in the last 15 years. After they went like 50 years or so without any changes.
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NEW GENERATION DEFINED -- April 15, 2010 Watchtower
by Ultimate Reality infrom jw.org, here is the new definition of the generation from the april 15, 2010 watchtower.. .
article: holy spirits role in the outworking of jehovahs purpose.
13 third, holy spirit is at work in bringing bible.
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Doubting Bro
The sad thing is that this topic has spawned numerous threads with this thread now at 14 pages by those who don't believe anything the WTS has to say yet those in the hall that do believe will hardly notice. There certainly won't be much discussion except to say that "the end is near"
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Mill Hill Disfellowshippings
by BorgHater ina few months ago there was a thread about a couple of elders at the mill hill bethel being disfellowshipped because they disagreed with some wt doctrine (i can't recall exactly what it was) and that several other betheliteswere under 'investigation'.
i haven't heard anything since, does anyone know anything more about this?.
borghater xx.
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Doubting Bro
Welcome Paulapollos! Sorry to hear about your rough treatment. Look forward to your contributions and hearing more of your story when you're comfortable.
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Two mounting proofs for Armageddon in 2034
by slimboyfat inas mentioned by narkissos a couple months ago, doubting bro yesterday, and no doubt others.
is this where they are headed?
i say "evidently" it is.
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Doubting Bro
The thing is that date setting is the only thing that keeps JWs motivated. I was just a young kid during the 75 debacle but I do remember the energy and excitment thinking that the great trib was going to start any day now (fear too, but that's another story). I also remember the argument about how Adam was created 6000 before 1975 but we didn't know when Eve was created or when they officially sinned. To me, the generation teaching was the primary argument that I (stupidly) believed meant that the world was ending soon. It fit together so nicely.
I recall giving a PT about the last days (early 90s) and even using the argument that we were almost at the 80 year anniversary of 1914 and that generation didn't have many left.
The change in 95 took the wind out of 1) the sails of folks that stuck around after 75 (like my parents that were in their 20s at the time) and 2) the born-ins like me who suddenly realized that we had better plan on getting a real career, get married, have kids and try to live a normal life because there was no longer a end date in sight.
The effects of having no date took a while to manifest but compare the "zeal" of your average JW 20 years ago to the average JW now. There is no comparison! It's obvious to me that leadership needs to fire up the members in some way. The best way to do that is to set a date. While I'm not sure they'll make the same mistake they made before, but I would be willing to put some money on it. After 15 years of dwindling committment levels in first world countries (where the donations come from), I firmly believe the WT leadership is aware of the problem. The berating talks, guilt inducing WT studies, pressure from the CO & DOs, placement of MTS grads, none have really worked.
Sure, they've had growth but its not translated into enough cash to keep the status quo. So, they've cut expenses to the bone (with more cuts on the way I would imagine). They have to figure out a way to motivate the average JW in the developed world to give more. In my opinion, there are 2 ways they can go:
1 - Mainstream - drop shunning, make blood conscious matter, focus less on field service and more on community projects (sort of like the LDS), turn Bethel into the JW version of BYU, push getting a good education instead of vilifying college, etc. Still keep the whole end time thing like others have but make it much more nonspecific, keep the no trinity, no hell, maybe no holidays. Institute tithing at some point so they can reasonably budget and make a go of it. Sure, you'd lose some members but I would bet you'd keep more born-ins who view JWism as just another religion. You would likely increase cash flow.
2 - Set an end date at 2034 and attempt to repeat the amount of growth they got in the 20 years prior to 1975. Sure, 2035 will roll around and the world will still be kicking along and there will be fall out from another false prophesy but if you could increase the numbers from 7 million to 14 million, who cares if you lose even 25%. It's not like they haven't done this before.
If they keep going the way they do, I see a slow death by a thousand cuts. #1 would make the most sense from a business prospective but I don't see them resisting #2. Time will tell.